Batman 2008 ..stutters !

it has always been my credo that only facts and their explanations make sense

so while I fully admit a total and sincere commitment to 'demonstrate' that Batman (frontend preset to Mencoder and Libavc) would be hard work for providing "the end solution for real smooth frame rate conversion at 20fps" , still I totally disagree this would mean that VDub and XviD could not achieve at least the same "smooth frame rate conversion at 20fps " or even possibly improve ! as demonstrated here ...

testing both solutions at extreme is quite simple ; we know that the Meizu M6 is hard pressed not stuttering when reaching 500kbits or so. The challenge here will then be to use the Batman Q5 'high quality' 470kbits preset and see how it performs when compared to XviD at 470kbits ; in both case making use of a 20fps frame rate.

then we can see

1) Since Batman is supposed to provide for a (more) smoother frame rate it first should not stutter at all
2) *if* achieving smoother frame rate, it should not be at the expense of the image quality ; the later at least should equal or improve on XviD

having said this I choosed wise to pick up a very difficult file to encode ; the kind that combines lots of tiny details, no chroma noise, lots of motion , etc.. ; a very good candidate is the Elephants Dream open source project since it is available as a 1080p source . It is no small potatoes to try to get this into the tiny 2.4" screen of the meizu ; the later is 4/3 ratio so it was a good option to crop the source to 1440*1080 ; it is now HD but in 4/3 too and still 20 times more pixels in the picture resolution ; sure details will become very tiny and difficult to keep clean once scaled and encoded to 320*240 ! luckily the M6 screen helps for this with its 163 dpi

the movie source is here : Elephants Dream » Download & Watch

take the so called 1920 HD version , curiously provided as MP42 codec ; now since peaks are as high as 50Mbits sometimes , it is the best option here as for image quality and detailed resolution ; a 815MB file though

Batman Q5 at 470kbps and 20fps is here : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service
VDbud and XviD at 470kbps and 20fps is here : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Soundtrack is mp3 128kbps stereo for both , and each is 45Mb in size ; for the Batman encode I choosed the latest (to date) 2008 available version , dated 5 february 2008 (three days ago)

Since there could be arguments on scaling I decided to scale first -the same- for both ; that is I made a Bicubic 320*240 and 20fps uncompressed source ; as for the codec choice I focused on Q5 and Q4 in Batman since they use of Libavc

so what happened ? once transfered in my M6, I found that :

1) the Batman file would stutter on some occasions . first at time 00:00:28 , then at time 00::05:16 (sometimes earlier at 05:11 instead ) , sometimes there will happen further stutter(s) soon after at time 05:17/18 , sometimes not ; later it will definitely stutter around time 00:05:41, and then again it may also be 05:39 and further 'replica' at 05;48 for instance. all these stutters indeed happen at high action scenes; just too normal so

2) the overall image quality was okay while obviously less detailed/sharp than the XviD encode

as for the VDub/XviD 470kbits file , it *never* stuttered at any moment ; the image is visibly superior too , with more details everywhere, thus even more challenging and difficult for the bit rate control !

As for the 'frame rate smoothness' I found both would provide same feeling for overall smoothness . It is quite a feat in both case given the 470k video bit rate is so close to the very maximum that brave little M6 can cope with ! now while the Vdub/Xvid encode got rid of stuttering here , I definitely would not recommend using such bit rate anyway. The screen size of the M6 is quite small and at 163dpi it does 'forgive' many artefacts ; so (again imho) keeping the bit rate 100kbits lower would not make such a visible difference . In Batman, for instance, I tried the Q4 preset (350kbits) and found it indeed visibly a bit inferior but reasonably not so different from Q5 anyway , while then gone are stutters with Q4

sure XviD is a difficult beast to take on a leash but it still can outperform any other solution !

Indeed I felt challenged to try and push XviD always a bit upper ( more than 500k average that is) but soon it then too started to stutter ; here is the typical XviD bit rate distribution then , which indicates it is on a tight-fast leash anyway ; now this is for sure a difficult movie for the RC , with a 10% change in the RC parameters making a 15 to 20% change in size



the tricky thing here (at 515k average) was that while it would stutter 'only' on two occasions ... it was on two 'average' sized frames not overshoot ....heck !! but since it was at times roughly similar to Batman Q5 stutters , this would still keep some logic here

rate control is quite good but Q5 will not achieve 470k average which should explain for the stutters ; ( see above a typical 515k VDub/Xvid bit rate gfx for similar appreciation ) ;
as mentioned Batman in its Q4 350kbps preset was okay with no stuttering but at the expense of some inferior image ; overall here is the typical Batman bit rate distribution for (any) Libavc (here Q4) ;



what is the more questioning here remains the 'lack' of I Frames where there should preferably be ; instead the Libavc codec manages many scene changes with P frames (of roughly similar size to I frame anyway) . I had noticed this with much more evidence in the so called "Batman Demo" movie ( the short LOTR movie) where obviously there lacks many I frames at full scene changes ; just play this movie either on the M6 or more conveniently on your PC and wach the bit rate distribution graph ; I frames are marked as red and in many occasions there should be one at a scene change . It is no obligation per se but then the drawback is that it will take a few consecutive P frames to achieve a 'neat' complete scene change . Luckily on the M6 this stays largely not much noticeable but if you choose a PC player in full screen mode you will see this ( mostly background details which are not set clean at once as with a sole I frame)

the bit rate graph indicates a slow(er) rate control which is not a bad thing per se with the M6 , but it definitely will/can come to fail on more difficult movies than this LOTR 'demo' , which is composed of rather static laaaarge figures filling the screen , little action, rather few details, etc..well easy to encode that is.



difficult to find more simple , no ? still there exists large VBR peaks which luckily get to be played here , quite possibly due to slow rise and decay , combined with few action, scene changes, etc.. ; anyway the bit rate control remains very questionable here ! I understand it is a "demo" ...

here is the link for the original Batman Demo movie : RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

don't get me wrong , I find Batman a valuable and useful tool , especially since it uses of Mencoder and mainly Libavc ; with a bit more experimentation the later may quite possibly challenge or even improve on XviD here -- that is only as for use with the M6 ; who knows ! so yes Batman deserves kudos anyway for providing *M6* easy encodes ( otherwise the debate XviD vs Libavc is closed in favor of XviD)

since I "lost all dignity" making such analysis and comments , or that "I dont' know what I am talking about" , or other kinda nice things from (..) , I simply let facts speak for themselves ; now and in the future ; no flame , facts , that's all

as facts ...take a look at what the HDX4 site dares provide as a 320*240 encode for PSP ; they for sure did not care much about all these encode matters ! the iPod file version is as bad either with peaks reaching 6Mbits ; it is quite probably a Q based fast encode and it is then interesting to see where really difficults scenes are

( such 'hidden' one is... the rolling credits at end , where no zone setting was used ( as for file size) in both Vdub/Xvid and Batman ; graphs speak for themselves )

http://80.190.241.27/hdx4/elephants_dream/ed_psp.mp4
http://80.190.241.27/hdx4/elephants_dream/ed_ipod.mp4

bit rate gfx of the PSP encode : http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1...hantpspgc6.jpg

the very sad point is that by sunday I will have nomore M6 ! I (stupidly) decided to sell it a few days ago and since I gave my word I will deliver it tomorrow or sunday ; I already miss it a lot ; and it's again all the Baman's fault ) without this episode I would have let it go without this hard work at tackling the best out of this little beauty ; I already look for another one in sell/buy forums !! but I am worried about the screen 'issue'...

http://www.meizume.com/43777-post5.html
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4...2300004pj6.jpg

well other 'dunno what I am talking about' gossip , I guess

so here it is , and enjoy Meizu

I use Batman all the time and haven't had a problem yet. It's smooth and in sync. After reading your previous thread, I can't help but wonder if this one is just to provoke BobbyQ into an argument.

to me there is no argument . I have confidence BobbyQ will find how to solve this problem I found . hope it just helps

'provocation' ? definitely no , even if I had my share ; so ...

as for me I haven't had any problem with frame rate smoothness using VDub and Xvid , 'even on a leash'

the really interesting point concerns the difference in behaviour ( libvac/xvid) here as for scene changes (P vs I ) and bit rate control) ; THIS is interesting , but I am not sure it will be discussed since all I did to look after that is of no concern or simply looked as a "provocation to an argument"

Well then the simplest solution for you would be not to use Batman. There, problem solved! :D

If you're so happy with VDub and Xvid then why big deal about all of Batman's supposed flaws? Myself, I tried different converters, found one I like and keep using it. You, on the other hand, found two you like and keep complaining about the one you don't use and yet the true purpose of this thread is to help?

hi trane , i have stottering in very fast scences (anime)with all batman profiles , after weeks of test the only non stuttering profile ive found is 380kbs limited with vmax to 380kbs and 18fps , xvid looks better but stutters without
maximum bitrate control and thats the point why libvac is better for m6.i upload the setting for batman

Originally Posted by Cruelty2k4

hi trane , i have stottering in very fast scences (anime)with all batman profiles , after weeks of test the only non stuttering profile ive found is 380kbs limited with vmax to 380kbs and 18fps , xvid looks better but stutters without
maximum bitrate control and thats the point why libvac is better for m6.i upload the setting for batman

I agree 350k or so is about the reasonable max bit rate ; there is no much to gain beyond that but..trouble

still does your M6 stutters with the Xvid 470k file I uploaded ? if it is the case ( which I have indeed possibly envisaged) that would mean some 'leakage' in the M6 chips ; while I doubt it anyway

anyway I have done all these comparisons with prior checking of a 100% loaded battery for instance ; just in case...even if I doubt a 25% filled battery could cause any stutter here ; even if the M6 is sure hard pressed for decode , screen, etc.. with these samples

what stood here doesn´t matter

Originally Posted by booboo773

Well then the simplest solution for you would be not to use Batman. There, problem solved! :D

If you're so happy with VDub and Xvid then why big deal about all of Batman's supposed flaws? Myself, I tried different converters, found one I like and keep using it. You, on the other hand, found two you like and keep complaining about the one you don't use and yet the true purpose of this thread is to help?

again, who is trying to start an argument here !!

now if you have ...technical arguments, please go ahead

@Colt : Batman is a nice tool ; is that sufficient if I write it that way ?

now that does not mean it is almost perfect , which is what the Batman Demo movie claims.. "finally a real smooth frame rate conversion" ; why "finally" !? should we understand nothing good -or better- was available before ? this is quite a strong statement , no ?

but again , really, this is of little interest ; there -is- still some stutter problem ; okay , let the designer correct this; that's all

Trane, the point of BatMan isn't... without a better word to my mind - a professional video authoring tool... It's simply a quick and easy to use video encoder pack optimized quite well for the Meizu M6 for the average movie. The point of it - as far as I see - isn't to create videos better than what you can with VDub if you configure everything up fully, but to create those videos ready for upload into the M6 after just a simple drag and drop.
If you're comfortable working multiple minutes to put the highest quality in for one video for the M6, then have fun! I just think that most just want only a few clicks or so for the video to be there

sure , you are correct ; with all its inner limitations the M6 is not such a video player that it deserves much more . For instance I never use of two pass to encode since the visual gain is quite questionable once played on the M6 !

it 'all' started when I made such a point ( 300k or so and one pass encode) with Vdub and Xvid , and I was (well let's use a soft word) 'hard pressed' by some 'veteran' members that such option was crap for M6 , that there was a much better solution , etc.. well I did not know what I was talking about

so okay I just checked where it would improve , if ...it would ! and that's the all story

again , actually , what almost only remains interesting to me is this tricky point on I vs P frames on scene change ; most codecs issue an I frame and you almost have to go back to H261 or H263 visio not to see this happen ; but it is interesting in the case of the M6 , due to these stutter problems ( lack of power that is , more simply said)

and yes Libavc can/may be a better candidate for the M6 , once ...it has been proven ; and not by invectives or similar amenities

Originally Posted by trane

now that does not mean it is almost perfect , which is what the Batman Demo movie claims.. "finally a real smooth frame rate conversion" ; why "finally" !? should we understand nothing good -or better- was available before ? this is quite a strong statement , no ?

This statement wasn't made because he fixed stuttering issues but because he threw out MEncoder in favor of directshow with AVISynth for framerate interpolation, at least that's about what he told me.

Originally Posted by mfb

This statement wasn't made because he fixed stuttering issues but because he threw out MEncoder in favor of directshow with AVISynth for framerate interpolation, at least that's about what he told me.

>>because he threw out MEncoder in favor of directshow with AVISynth for framerate interpolation

okay but where is the point with providing (better) frame rate conversion ? afaik a video file has a specific frame rate , period ; that is I do not see what stands for framerate "interpolation" !?

I know of video frame rate and of audio interleave ; which is what AVI makes . here , I know of two different modes : audio aligned on interleaves or audio split across interleaves.

now while video frame rate speaks for itself , still yes the M6 is not a "guaranteed" frame rate player ; far from this as soon as video data goes up . Hence these 'stutter' problems we have to care for . Does the encoder, the codec version and setting options make a difference here ? yes , simply depending on the way these are properly used

so, actually does the choice of Libavc prove it can provide with a "smoother" frame rate for the (limited hardware) Meizu M6 ? that was the point finally, and yet there is no such evidence imho

then we have smooth audio syncing ; and again there is no definitive evidence that the ( Batman) option of audio aligned on interleaves provides with better sync . for instance, In the samples I supplied ( including those coming hereafter) I used of audio split across interleaves , and with perfect sync.

in any case of trouble with audio sync ( mostly due to the kind of limited hardware players such as cell phones or even...Meizu M6) you can fix it a way or the other with such tool as AVImuxGUI (or other)

Here are two samples totally different on many aspects ; one is made with Batman using Libvac and audio aligned on interleaves , the other with Vdub using Xvid and audio split across interleaves ; even the AVI type is different , with veteran V1 for Batman and V2 for Vdub.

Both are encoded at same frame rate (20fps) and exactly same bit rate (well... 252kbits and 254kbits respectively) ; the file size is simply different since one (batman) uses of 112kbits audio while the other uses of 128kbits which makes anyway no audible difference , just a small difference in file size

I have , here, choosen 250k video bit rate as Xvid is supposed to be in difficulty in low bit rate versus Libavc .... let's see this (two 13MB files)

Batman [Q3] crossroads_2005 [250kbps@20fps] : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service
Vdub_Xvid crossroads_2005 [250kbps@20fps] : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

I would say that imho the Vdub/Xvid file offers a slightly better image quality , with less pixelated video in dark screen areas and scene changes; as for audio sync it is rock solid in both case ; this you can monitor on Ginger Baker snare drums which keeps the beat . Now in the end do people will jump off their chair and swap from Batman to Vdub ? no indeed , because video viewing on M6 is sure no TVHD experience in any way ; just a pleasing experience from a very small handheld device, and as such a small quality difference can remain exotic to many ( including me )

So Batman , sure, keeps all its interest as a convenient , fast, simple Drag and Drop solution

I would even add that I really like the fact that it supports conversion of YouTube .flv video files ; it is still a bit buggy but this a great 'plus' of Batman

(in the end, looks like I have found a Cowon D2 , but with...still an eye on the little M6

[Updates vom 12.02.2008] :
- tells you if a special command does not exist
- lets you make your own plugins and your own special commands
- reworked bitrate distribution for all profiles, with an emphasis on Q5. This should keep tearing at bay much better while at the same time offers a better method to prevent artifacts in dark areas of the image. Uploaded a new demo movie
- please reload this version once more (there was a bug)

[Updates vom 10.02.2008] :
- increased scene change detection sensitivity now favors the use of keyframes which can help preventing block errors in playback
- a keyframe is generated at least every 6 seconds, resulting in more comfortable fast forwarding
- silent mode shows no protocol anymore (it's still in ~BatMan\log)
- audio delay wasn't set correctly when switching devices *fixed*




while actually on a D2, I still care a lot for the M6 ; so when I came to read this , it looks like "the bad guy" ( I mean not being a blind faith devotee ? ) was right on many 'faulty' aspects of the 7 feb version of Batman (and of course former versions)

>increased scene change detection sensitivity now favors the use of keyframes which can help preventing block errors in playback

this appeared very clearly on the screen captures I posted ; it was for sure a poor seeting here

>reworked bitrate distribution for all profiles, with an emphasis on Q5.

no time to check , and some difficulty to lay my hand on a M6 ( still can borough one ), so somebody will have to check that actually the Q5 preset in Batman does not stutter anymore on this Elephant Dreams movie ; especially since while the Q5 preset claims for 470k, the average true bit rate was here "only" 440k as well ;

for the record XviD @440k would not stutter here while providing with a better image as well

>a better method to prevent artifacts in dark areas of the image.

a problem here where Batman is innocent ; the M6 video driver screen is obviously boosted a lot to get the more 'punch' out of this (probably not much costly) Samsung lcd display ; still as it is also quite possibly hardware related too , and with screens looking different from each other ( indeed checked with same M6 firmware) it is not easy to work out a one fix (black level shift) for the dark areas issue that will be ok with all M6s

another issue is to set a better RGB balance since here also the video driver curve ( or the screen !) is a bit wrong ; indeed not a big issue at all given the M6 is an entry level 2.4" PMP but why not care for it anyway !?

>a keyframe is generated at least every 6 seconds, resulting in more comfortable fast forwarding

good scene detection sensitivity and automatic key frame provide for this on 99,9% of video content ; so it looks a bit outdated here , some past necessity for (Live or seekable) streamed content only

well glad to see all this ! who knows , in the end the Libavc choice may prove to be as good as XviD

ooouch !!

quite puzzled by the new version of the Batman video demo movie ...

it looks that nobody cares for the extra(vagant) color saturation boost ! :eek:

obviously the former (first) version was correct on this aspect

I advocated the use of Batman to my youngster as a no brainer efficient tool

still I hoped some old bug I had noticed with QT movies .mov was gone ; it was a simple upside down ( wrong rotation) problem , but while it has not been fixed it has even changed in a very strange way !! :eek:

so here it is from left to right



1) source
2) Batman 5/2/2008
3) Batman (stable) 24/2/2008

hope it helps since otherwise looks like nobody checks much ...
kindly from the black sheep debunker

having quickly looked yesterday evening at the latest 'upgrade' of Batman 24/2 2:48 PM ( such as released , quite incidently, some 20 minutes after my post quoting color oversaturation ) I do sadly find it goes the wrong way , agravating artefacts ; especially again at scene changes on dark background ; which is known as one of the most tricky problem with M6 (keeping dark background non-pixelated and evenly clear of blockiness)

here is the movie made with Batman 24feb version : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

simply said the Batman 5/2 version was better than this 24/2 upgrade, even if it would have its own problems ; now they were overall less pronounced

for the record ( since these are the same files and links as mentioned previously in the thread) here are :

Batman 5feb : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service
VDub/ XviD : MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

now the encode mistakes in the new parameters choices simply show from the hereafter figures !


Batman 24/2/2008

number of key frames 144
I frame size (mini/average/max) 885 4505 12713
total I frames 634k

P frame size (mini/average/max) 45 1497 5546
total P frames 8007k

--------------------

Batman 5/2/2008

number of key frames 106
I frame size (mini/average/max) 981 4901 14420
total I frames 508k

P frame size (mini/average/max) 45 1515 11230
total P frames 8142k
--------------------------------

VDub/XviD

number of key frames 70
I frame size (mini/average/max) 874 4239 6795
total I frames 290k

P frame size (mini/average/max) 6 1555 8952
total P frames 8431k

-------

the figures show and do explain quite directly why Batman 24/2 is ...worse ! I mean all the pixelated scene transitions, backgrounds, etc..; this is in plain text with P Frames caping at 5546 !! a (blind) bad move in parameters here ...

another poor setting concerns I (key) Frames ; as predictable the change operated in Batman concerning automated key frames IS a bad move , almost nonsense for non streamed media ; it ends with twice the number of key frames versus VDub which is very acurate at issueing an automated key frame only where and when it should be ; and there will be enough for seeking

another bad setting is that too many bits are assigned to I key frames , with no visual benefit. It's simply a waste of data ; not such a big one indeed but better save for better P frames bits distribution , provided it is well set too .

'assuming' here the VDbub/XviD version is honestly the best looking version , it should be now simple to try and match overall Libavec codec parameters such as being close to XviD ! this does not guarantee the Libavc results will be same quality but , at least, it is worth a try ....

hope it helps ! my youngster now needs good tools , no more toys

the black sheep Bytes :D

hello i just to tell you that i have any problem untill now with their settings My personal settings for Batman
except with videos who have are in VBR(but it's works when batman acept the video good too i ave just very very very very little problems) why bobbyQ don't tell us what he think about your observations??? because he has the solution,he's the inventor of batman,sorry for my bad english.

All I am interested in is having a good drag&drop batch utility for the M6 ; that is also well designed to 'overcome' some limitations inherent to the M6

Batman seems a good candidate for this ; now there has been some obscure ego problems floating around ; too bad , not my fault nore my intention ; still can't undestand why I was so stupidly insulted

not to mention it was sometimes by such 'specialists' that talked of "Batman's smoother frame rate ...interpolation", etc.. :D

Originally Posted by trane

not to mention it was sometimes by such 'specialists' that talked of "Batman's smoother frame rate ...interpolation", etc.. :D

Are you implying me by that? Come on..... I only carbon copied what BobbyQ said to me. I am no specialist on MPEG4 video encoding, I would only call the xvid devs etc. specialist. The only thing I'm good at on that front is fucking around with profilecode I shouldn't be messing with and I happen to know how to use an encoder.

Good of you to recognize your own ego problem, that's the first step.